G-0PEXN4B5CS Cliff – Every Box On Her Diagnosis Form, I Ticked for Myself - The Brave Man Project - The Brave Man Project with Hamish Niven

Episode 11

Cliff – Every Box On Her Diagnosis Form, I Ticked for Myself - The Brave Man Project

Published on: 2nd September, 2026

Cliff sat with his daughter, working through the tick boxes on her assessment form. She's that, so am I. She's that, so am I. He booked his own assessment not long after.

Sound Bites

- "It's like being in an aeroplane. If the masks come down, you put it over yourself first, then you help your child."

- "If you can learn to self-regulate, you can then lend your nervous system to your child."

- "So we're going to put some drugs into your daughter that could be dangerous for your heart. Okay. There's got to be different ways."

- "We're going through all these tick boxes, ticking all the same boxes."

- "Once you've got your diagnosis, you're like, I don't even know who I am anymore."

- "I would always make sure I brought a football because if you get to school and nobody's got a ball, we're like, my God, how am going to get through?"

- "I'm drinking and that's probably the only time I was unmasking because I was numbing the worries, the anxiety."

- "It got to a point where I really liked the naughty step because it's quiet."

Cliff's daughter used to turn a big yellow builder's bucket upside down and sit inside it with her toys. It took two other parents at the school gate, a teacher, and a waiting room full of toddlers before anyone worked out why.

Somewhere in the middle of filling in her assessment forms, Cliff started answering for himself. He was diagnosed with ADHD last year. He now runs the podcast Parenting, Autism and ADHD, which his daughter appears on, and is working towards ADHD coaching certifications.

Mentioned in This Episode

Snapdragons — the assessment service where Cliff sat in the waiting room, saw toddlers being assessed, and realised how much time they had lost waiting

Paul McKenna — the technique Cliff uses of changing the voice of the inner critic into a cartoon voice so it stops sounding vicious

Eckhart Tolle — the silent observer practice Cliff uses to break hyperfocus when his daughter needs him

Connect with Cliff

Parenting, Autism and ADHD on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ParentingAutismandADHD

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cliff_kilmister08

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cliff.kilmister

X: https://x.com/KilmisterCliff

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cliff-kilmister-420a07bb

Work with Cliff — anxiety support, founding members offer, message him here: https://m.me/cliff.kilmister

A little about Hamish Niven

For 25 years, I lived a life that looked successful from the outside. Inside it was falling apart, and I was throwing fuel on the fire — addiction, alcohol. I was on a steep path to self-destruct.

November 2018. I chose life, and had to change everything.

I built The 13th Room because nothing like that existed when I needed it.

The Brave Man Project — this podcast. It is about men, but not just for men. Men who broke under the weight of their own performance. Men who rebuilt and climbed so much higher.

The 13th Room is a space for the successful man who needs to change and knows it. 13 sessions, you and me. No fixing. Pure witnessing. Starts with a free 20-minute conversation.

Podcast website: https://thebravemanproject.com

Hamish's website: https://hamishniven.com

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheBraveManProject

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamishniven/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hamish.niven

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hamishniven/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hamishniven

Transcript
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And once you've learned all the tools and strategies and techniques,

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It's about

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Hmm.

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learning what you can do to help yourself before you help your child.

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It's like being in an airplane.

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If the masks come down, you put it over yourself first,

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then you help your child.

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And if you can learn to self-regulate,

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you can then lend your nervous system.

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to your child pretty much you're on your own and you've got the doctors,

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but they just want to medicate and.

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BAM

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there's risks to your heart with the ADHD medicine.

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"So we're going to put some drugs into your daughter that could

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be dangerous for your heart. Okay.

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Hi, everybody. Today we are talking to Cliff.

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Cliff, you've also got a podcast.

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I mean, it's blaring in front of me for those who are watching this on YouTube.

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Parenting Autism and ADHD.

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I have.

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What is your story? Why is that what you talk about?

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Yeah, so my story, like everybody's story that I'm interviewing,

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there's lots of similarities in our experiences.

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So my daughter struggling at school and you're seeing these patterns play

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out in front of your eyes thinking,

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I remember being at school and having very similar difficulties.

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And somehow I got through it. I didn't get the best of grades,

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but some things I did like my IT.

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came out quite good. But most of it,

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I barely scraped. Like a pass was a C,

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I think, in our day, wasn't it?

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They all do these numbering systems.

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But she's projecting to not even pass a lot of her subjects

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as we're progressing. Things are getting worse.

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She's falling behind. And I'm thinking,

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right, well, there's something going on here.

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So we spoke to a couple of our parents,

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and they said, well, maybe she's got some neurodiversity.

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And there was two parents there that had in the school,

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the primary school, that had kids with ~ neurodiversity.

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And just talking to them, thank goodness we met them because we wouldn't have even

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thought about these things. And then the teacher,

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we're going to these parents evenings and there was one teacher that said that,

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yeah, we think she might be on the spectrum.

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So I'm like, okay. But then we got the

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Okay.

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really bad advice of, and if anyone's listening and you've got

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a kid who's struggling, don't even hesitate and don't wait because you

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can get your child tested at age two.

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But we was told that you couldn't do it until she was eight,

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I think it was. So we've delayed and delayed waiting for this fictitious,

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you can only get diagnosed at eight years old.

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And it really put us back even further because then you're on a waiting list

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for a mate instead of We only found this out right we went to It's called

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the Snapdragons. We've actually interviewed on our channel.

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One of the people that works there really Good practitioner that's it's been really

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helpful for us and I'm diverse in doing the ADHD thing So we're in

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the waiting room waiting for the assessments and you see these little toddlers

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running around

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Hang on a minute. How are they here in the waiting room for the same thing we are?

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And then it all clicks and you start realising that,

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yeah, we should have been doing this a lot sooner.

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So if anyone is out there with,

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you know, it's in signs and signals,

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things like this we saw with Eva,

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she watches TV upside down. She'll hide under a comfort blanket.

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she'll sit and do drawing with the comfort blanket over her head and maybe like

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a torch under there. When she was really small,

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you know those builder's buckets.

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She used to love one of those.

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She would just turn it upside down.

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It was a big yellow bucket. it was still quite bright under there.

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And she would be in there playing with her toys.

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And when you start thinking about

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And I'm still thinking

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about why she's doing this. It's because of the way I've been working

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Why is she doing this? It's because of all the overload,

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a sensory input and she's just trying to block things out.

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on this since the beginning. And so I'm trying to think.

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Everything's coming at you. It's all overwhelming.

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Too much lights, too much input.

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Your mind doesn't stop. This is,

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and you go through the diagnosis steps with

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her and

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you

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you're doing all these tick box things,

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know, questionnaires.

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doing it with her and thinking,

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yep, she's that, so am I.

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She's that, so am I.

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So yeah, we're going through all these tick boxes ticking all the same boxes.

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And you're wondering, well, we're ticking the same one,

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so maybe she's got this from me.

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You know, and so that's where it started.

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As we've been on this big journey of trying to get her the right support,

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trying to learn the strategies and tools.

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And one of the things that

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that I've picked up on this journey is that as the parent,

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these things are generally passed down through genetics.

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this comes from, it's massive in my family,

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loads of my cousins and my brother and my mom,

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and it's there through, you know,

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the family tree. So this is genetics we're talking about.

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Anyway, losing my track now, doing the ADHD thing going off.

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So yeah.

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So

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yeah, you were filling this form in for her and going,

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Mmm.

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yeah,

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but I am, yes, but I am, yes, but I am.

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Yes, yes, that's

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it. Yes, exactly. So that led me to my diagnosis.

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I went and got paid for a private one because the NHS waiting list was so long.

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I'm still on the waiting list actually for the NHS.

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I'm still gonna go through that because they're gonna do the autism one.

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They're only paid for the ADHD one.

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I think I'm both.

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My daughter is both, she's AuDHD.

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But I think primarily I see a lot more of the ADHD sort of traits.

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But yeah, so yeah, that led me to learning more about myself.

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And then once you've got your diagnosis,

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you're like, I don't even know who I am anymore.

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Yeah, let's

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stop just there and take you back to growing up through all that process.

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That where I don't know who I am,

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we must come back to that because that is so incredibly important.

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But wind back, go back to school,

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go back to primary school, go back to growing up through school and what?

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What troubles did you have? did you,

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what made you not normal? Why were you not normal?

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What was happening? What was, what was ADHD back there that you had no idea was,

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your parents had no idea was?

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Yeah, really great question. So I remember when I was really young

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and noisy places like supermarkets,

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there was this one time we was at train station.

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I remember it quite well. I so young.

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I could probably barely walk and the noise of all the train and the people

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on the platform and it was just,

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and back then.

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you know, the noise of the doors,

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remember those clang, clang, clang,

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clang, clang, clang, all that input.

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And I just threw myself on the floor and I was like having a meltdown.

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And my mum had to pick me up and hold me and tell me,

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it's all right, we'll get there.

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And then you look back at moments like that.

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They're like canon moments for you when you realise that you don't get

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on well in crowds, busy situations.

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The lights, I've always had a sensitivity to lights.

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The school playground, my God,

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just surviving that.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I used to play football with my friends.

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That kind of took my mind out of the busy,

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it gives me something to focus on.

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And they were like little strategies that I came up with.

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You know, and I would always make sure I brought a football because if

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you get to school and nobody's got a ball,

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we're like, my God, how am going to get through?

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It's just crazy little things that you,

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don't even realise you was doing to mask just to fit

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Hmm.

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in. And no one would know, you know,

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the struggles. I'd love to hear actually about yours.

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What's your memory of, like the schools and growing up and

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You know, it's as you were saying that I was going back.

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rebellious.

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Mm.

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Definitely was that. I don't remember if I ran around.

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I don't remember the noise. Noise,

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certain noises really, really do irritate me,

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still do. I also very strong memories are just keeping my head down,

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keeping my head down,

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Mm.

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getting on with stuff, keeping out of sight.

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That was really, really important.

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I do know you can't see my toes,

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but my toes are doing this as I'm talking and thinking my toes do this.

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It's very, very funny. That's something I've only noticed recently.

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yeah stimming stimming with your toes i'm i'm sitting here playing

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~ Stimming with me toes.

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Absolutely. Yeah. And you're fiddling with something.

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with the car

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But yeah, I mean, I don't remember a huge amount of my childhood.

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I remember little bits here and there and things like that,

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but not.

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not coping and finding ways to make sense of.

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But I I've worked in TV industry,

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I've always had jobs which were highly creative,

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requiring me to be highly present.

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Castle 19.

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Yeah, back to childhood,

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I can't honestly remember. I've been back there numerous times and keep

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on going back and thinking, but I don't really see a great deal.

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More diving to do, I think. Short answer.

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Yeah, there's a lot to unpack,

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isn't there? It's sort of a journey.

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Hmm

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So journey for the parent. And once you've learned all the tools

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and strategies and techniques,

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this is what I talk about a lot on our podcast.

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It's about

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Hmm.

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learning what you can do to help yourself before you help your child.

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It's like being in an airplane.

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If the masks come down, you put it over yourself first,

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then you help your child.

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Mm.

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And if you can learn to self-regulate,

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you can then lend your nervous system.

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to your child and that's a lot of what we talk about.

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And the other thing is it's so lonely there as well.

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Like you don't know what this is all about and you've got maybe one

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or two people in the playground,

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but pretty much you're on your own and you've got the doctors,

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but they just want to medicate and.

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BAM

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There's other ways of doing things.

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My daughter has refused the medication.

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I don't like the idea of the medication personally either because of

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all the side effects and

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Mm.

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there's risks to your heart with the ADHD medicine.

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So the first thing they want to do is

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Cool.

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test your, do ECGs for your heart.

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"So we're going to put some drugs into your daughter that could

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be dangerous for your heart. Okay.

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There's got to

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Yeah.

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be different ways.

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Absolutely. mean, it's it's it's stimulation,

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isn't it? I mean,

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Mmm.

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I had a guy on a previous podcast.

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He used cocaine for years as his calming down mechanism.

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mean, Ritalin is speed basically,

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isn't it? I mean, you are making the heart go making the whole body

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go with this stuff ironically to bring you down,

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which I don't understand. So yeah,

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I don't blame you not wanting to not wanting to take the meds.

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fascinating that you say that because Going back to what you said about

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how you dealt with it growing up for

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me this drinking numbs the senses so if it was going

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to a party or pub or something and we did a lot of underage drinking back then

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I mean I was drinking at 14

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Mm-hmm.

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13 maybe in the park

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Do you know, I

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We'd sneak into,

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remember those bits.

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yeah, see there were good times,

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but there were really unhealthy times as well.

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Mm.

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Yeah, but, so yeah, where was I going with that?

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So yeah, I'm drinking and that's probably the only time I

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was unmasking because I was numbing the worries,

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the anxiety,

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Mm.

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all that stuff.

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I realised a couple of years ago that I was drinking for masking reasons as well.

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The drinking was the self-medicating.

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And actually makes it more difficult now that I'm not drinking that the angst,

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the noise, the overstimulation is more of a problem.

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completely with you, alcohol was a great way of just taking that edge off or

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Quite a big edge off. Yeah, not necessarily healthy,

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but it worked.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that brings me into one of

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the journeys I had. And this is one of the things that I've on part

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of this journey of learning about myself.

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This was before Eva came along and before I even knew I was ADHD.

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Anxiety, and depression.

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Hmm.

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~

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And like you say, finding ways to cope with it in negative ways,

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drinking, all these things. I've had lots of therapy and learned lots

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of tools. I've got lots of stuff in my toolbox already.

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And then Eva comes along. Then we add a new layer with the neurodiversity.

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And I feel like I'm starting all over again.

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Hmm.

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Because the anxiety is.

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basically compounded into the neurodiversity,

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isn't it?

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Hmm.

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So it's so much more than just anxiety when you're neurodiverse.

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Mm-hmm.

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So you're then learning again.

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So I'm going to do some more learning and that's what the podcast is all about,

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learning and speaking to other people,

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finding out what they know. And I'm going to be doing some ADHD coaching

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certifications as well. And yeah,

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there's such a lot to do. I'm really excited.

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It's a really great.

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journey and a positive

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Mm-hmm.

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one as well. But that leads me into thinking about the mind bully

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and your your inner thoughts and all the problems that come up from anxiety.

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I like that. It's asking questions,

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isn't it? It's exactly. And I had that conversation last week with somebody.

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When you ask questions, you've got curiosity,

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you then have answers, you've got opportunities rather than getting smaller because

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you're not asking them.

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but it's the mind bully always wants to tell you that you're not good enough,

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doesn't it? Well, you've got imposter syndrome,

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you know, you're

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that mind bully needs to be

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Mm-hmm.

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this is one of the Paul McKenna techniques that he uses and I really like

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is changing the voice of that inner mind bully to something like

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a character like a Mickey Mouse you're not good enough are you it's suddenly

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not quite as vicious yeah

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I like that.

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Brilliant. Let's dive back into you were diagnosed with ADHD recently.

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your adult life work

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Stuff you've got no control over.

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How did ADHD impact being an adult,

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having to earn money, having to pay the bills,

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all that kind of stuff?

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So yeah, I was diagnosed last year.

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I got diagnosed obviously because I was thinking what's going on with Eva,

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but I was also struggling in work situations.

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And.

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Just thinking back to that for a second.

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Yeah, we're going, yeah. So I've got work situation.

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We've got family issues going on.

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All the problems are piling up.

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I'm declining back into old habits.

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I'm starting my drinking again.

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I don't want to be doing this.

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I need to go and speak to the doctor.

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So I went and saw the doctor that there wasn't much help.

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I got some therapy. That was really helpful.

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But I thought to myself, if there are other underlying issues like Eva's got,

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then I need to be being the role model and showing Eva this is not the way to do it.

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This is the way to do it. So I went and got diagnosed myself just to confirm what

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I think I already really knew that I was the same.

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And it confirmed it. And then your identity starts to shift.

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Like it's not a label.

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you are understanding now that your brain is wired differently to everybody else.

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And again, is that a bad thing?

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Maybe, maybe not. Okay,

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maybe not because now I can understand that my brain wired differently.

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I can put different strategies,

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learn different tools, techniques,

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speak to loads of really interesting,

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lovely people that we're doing on the podcast.

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Eva's on the podcast as well. She's giving...

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her say on things, letting me know how we're doing.

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And yeah, it's just been a really amazing journey.

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But also, it's ups and downs, isn't it?

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It's really quite hard. And then you're up and you're making headway

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and feeling like you're finding strategies.

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And there's something else will come along and go,

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well, you haven't

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You don't know what to do with this yet.

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So we're going to find out. And that's what the podcast again is

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all about because nobody knows everything,

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but together we're stronger.

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When you're not doing your day job,

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you're doing your podcast. What is the day job and how has ADHD made that more

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difficult? I guess that's what I want to know.

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Just living with ADHD as a businessman,

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working, dealing with people, things you can't control,

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all that kind of stuff.

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Yeah, so learning things about ADHD,

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which I never knew like stimming for example how that can help regulate that's

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really been a big help I mean,

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I've always been fiddling with things anyway,

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like my pen I used to come home from school and I'd have black ink down

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my Because I'd be chewing a pen fiddling with a pen breaking the

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pen You know stimming didn't even know it but ~ Yeah,

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little things like that do help definitely

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~ but at work it's been a very difficult time,

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yeah, it's difficult. Certain situations at work.

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And I'm sure they're probably anybody who's listening,

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that's got ADHD or autism.

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probably appreciate when you're put in situations where it's crowded busy like

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say they want you to go to London and go to a meeting there you've

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got to get through all that noise on the station navigate all that

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and so you already heightened anxiety just from thinking about it but then

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you go through it and then you've got to go and sit through in a meeting room with

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all these

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neurotypical people and I hate small talk.

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You know, so the first thing they say,

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how are you? I

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Yeah.

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need to find a way of answering.

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How are you with a polite way of saying fuck off?

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Yeah, I'm fucking fine, thank you.

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Yeah. You don't fucking care.

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You're just saying that for being polite,

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but you don't really care.

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this is where we can dive back into identity because,

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yeah, you said when you get diagnosed ADHD,

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something changes.

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fundamentally. Tell me about that.

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Yeah, you've got to figure out who you are again.

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And it's a blessing in a way because you can start realising that actually

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you're not weird. You're different.

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Yeah. But that doesn't mean you're weird.

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to us, it's our normal. So I don't like to leave the house anymore.

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I do leave the house. I like to go to nature.

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I like to go and walk in the woods where it's quiet.

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And when I a kid, I used to like getting out and outdoors on my bike with

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my friends.

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you know, riding our bikes. I remember going scrumping and getting up

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to a mischief like this. Kids today,

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they just want to play Fortnite.

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And you're like, come on. So we're going to get Eva out and we're going to

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go for a walk along the river later today.

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The sun's shining. And yeah, just get back to realising that there's

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more life. I don't like going to shopping centres.

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My wife, she does the shopping.

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I do go in them occasionally. She thinks I'm a nightmare when I'm

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in there because I'll just be buying all the naughty food.

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~ chocolate biscuits. Yeah.

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Absolutely. stuff that stimulates,

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stuff that calms you down or winds you up.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly. The stuff we shouldn't be eating.

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And again, that's another addiction,

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like the drinking and all the other things.

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That's just another way of

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I call it stimming with food. I just like it starts the minute I sit down

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to watch telly Because i'm just I need to be moving about

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And I think that's going to be the good thing about getting out and going

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for a walk in nature a bit later.

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Just trying to slow down the mind.

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Mm.

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And you don't realise how much you need that.

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I think that's a big part of getting diagnosed and realising,

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actually, maybe I need this more than a typical person does because we're different.

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When I used to get told off, my mum,

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she used to put me on the naughty step.

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Sit there and be quiet. It got to a point where I really liked

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the naughty step because it's quiet.

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My mind could just go on its own little journeys and I could just sit there.

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I was out the way of all my brother and mum and dad making,

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my mum's really noisy.

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You

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So all that noise I could just sit there and just like Yeah,

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this is my space now.

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Mm.

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So she couldn't really use the naughty spot for Telling me off because

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I liked it

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You liked it? Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You've definitely nailed something really important about being in nature.

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I moved to London beginning of 2026 and there is nature

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two miles one direction, one mile the other direction.

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And I'm there every day. I go for a walk for every day.

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It's so important to see the trees,

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listen to the birds, avoid the dogs and the people of which there are so many.

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Mm-hmm.

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But just that, just being outside,

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being that slowing down, yeah,

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it is a chance to, as you said,

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slow down, to feel, to allow this thing just to sort of stop spinning

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at a hundred million miles an hour and just slow down a little bit.

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you have a routine that you can wind down with,

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part of your process, ADHD process if you like?

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I'm growing a little veggie plants out the back.

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So I'm always stepping out whenever things are getting too much for me,

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get out in the garden and talk to the plants like a lunatic.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, yeah, I'm growing cauliflower,

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broccoli, tomatoes,

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lettuce.

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Not very good at growing the carrots.

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They came out all strandy last year,

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probably won't bother with those.

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Hmm.

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I've got some potatoes growing.

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Yeah, cabbages, although they haven't sprung yet.

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I'm hoping they'll spring up soon.

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But yeah, we've got little, they're only already tiny at the moment,

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but yeah, it's gonna be good. We've got a good crop coming there.

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guess that's grounding isn't it?

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I know it sounds a cliche but you're physically moving,

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doing things and that does it how does it how does that help your nervous system?

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it's a fantastic question because I noticed that when I was doing the plants

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my mind was quiet. I didn't even notice this was actually happening until

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the last few weeks actually and I clocked it and I was like,

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hang on a minute, my mind stopped racing and I've been focused on the plants.

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I need to this more, this is really good because it doesn't shut up.

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When I wanna sleep, it doesn't shut up.

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When I want it to be...

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Quiet, doesn't shut up. When I go for an interview and I need it to be busy,

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then, well this is a good time to shut down.

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Hi, my name is... What the fuck's my name?

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Yeah, I could almost see that.

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Yeah,

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trust me that happens.

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Mm-hmm.

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my goodness, my memory goodness.

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I don't know if you experienced this,

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but I lose my phone five times a day,

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but at least ~ I put it down.

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I found it in the dishwasher the other day.

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Thank goodness I didn't switch it on.

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But it could be anywhere in the fridge in the cupboard.

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I don't know where I've put it in after time.

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why I've done those things. If you ask me,

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did I do that? I'd say no, I didn't do that.

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You've got pixies. I've got pixies.

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They hide things. You know, I put my keys behind me there,

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they're gone. Pixies somewhere in the house,

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Yeah, the

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bloody things, nicking them, hiding it.

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Yep.

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gremlins are back. Yeah,

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They are back. Crazy, crazy, isn't it?

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I was going to ask you

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I didn't.

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a question and I can't what it was now.

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Fine example of, it's like off on a tangent.

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Yeah, yeah, it happens.

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it was something to do with food?

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No. Stimming? No. I can't remember,

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we'll have to come back to that one.

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It will come back to you when you're not thinking about it.

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Absolutely. It was

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That's what happens to me.

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something definitely to do with thinking,

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wasn't it? ~

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Identity. Let's go back to that.

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So you got formally diagnosed.

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Mm.

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Were you able to sort of look at yourself differently with that?

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Almost like Cliff, you are different.

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You are officially different, not just think you are.

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Yeah, that's a great question again.

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A lot of people struggle with this and they don't want to get labeled,

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right?

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Mm.

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And I didn't want to label either.

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It took us a little bit of a mindset shift to actually get to the point where

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we could go, look, if we don't know what it is,

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we can't start a journey of what to do.

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So yeah, new identity.

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new strategies, new techniques,

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new life, new me and everything's changing,

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everything, even like situations at work which normally I would

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try and mask through. I'm like,

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well hang on a minute, why should I have to?

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If someone is

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Hmm.

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affecting me in a certain way and triggering me,

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there is such a thing as the equality,

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health and safety or quality act,

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I can't remember, is it 2010 or something like that.

Speaker:

equality and diversity if i'm different and you know you'll treat me in

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a way that that is impacting me shouldn't you be the ones that change

Speaker:

why should we just sit there and take it

Speaker:

Hmm

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so yeah the whole mindset kind of does shift a little bit and you know with

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the journey we've been on with Eva i'm sitting there saying to

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the school Eva's different

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You can't just bung her in the school assembly room and think she's going

Speaker:

to be okay. And then she comes home and unloads on us and has a massive meltdown.

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It's a bit hypocritical of me to like stick up for my daughter in situations that

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I know are really badly impacted her mental health.

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And then me going to work and saying,

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well, it's okay. I've dealt with it for 48 years.

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I can just carry on masking and pretending I'm all right when I'm not.

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No, I think that's a big part of identity shift.

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Yeah.

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I don't think I should be feeling guilty for,

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you know, accepting who I am and why shouldn't they

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me

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accept me? Does that make sense?

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It makes complete sense. Yeah.

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I was chatting to somebody the other day about that and I likened it

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to that piece of paper that said,

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yes, you're ADHD. Hamish was standing on this mountain for 54 years

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and then suddenly I was on another mountain and

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Mmm.

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knowing that I am different, being told I am rather than just thinking

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it and beating myself up for it.

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It's like, okay, everything is different.

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So I'm looking at the world from a different perspective,

Speaker:

exactly as you said, you know,

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it's not okay to treat me badly because I'm different.

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And it's, it's really empowering,

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but it has required me to look at everything.

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So friendships, relationships,

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home life, not caring when I can't find the keys because there's bloody

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Pixies have just taken it. You know,

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I just laugh now and wander around the house and

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Yeah.

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I will now go into my bedroom and say,

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right, I have now checked my bedroom.

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I don't need to go back there four times.

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So I'm already building routines by realising that,

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yeah, I'm going to lose my keys 10 times a day,

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five times a day and just being

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Mm.

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methodical. Say it's not in that room.

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I've checked it. It's not in the bathroom.

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Don't have a dishwasher. So I don't have that problem.

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But I've had to look at my identity and realise that it's,

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I am me. And it's been really way of just saying,

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yeah, I'm okay with being me. It's,

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there's a lot of forgiveness, a lot of grief and sadness,

Speaker:

but a lot of forgiveness.

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Hmm.

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And it's been really, really empowering to go,

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fuck it, I'm different and I'm going to own it.

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Yeah, a lot of people, well not a lot of people,

Speaker:

a few people I've spoke to said,

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they think they might have it,

Speaker:

but they don't want to use it as an excuse.

Speaker:

I don't think that's the right way of framing it.

Speaker:

Like you say, if you accept and then forgive,

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forgive is massive yourself or you're in a situation that's impacting

Speaker:

you and doesn't impact others.

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You know, there's a bit of guilt.

Speaker:

Why do it? Why? We can't help it that you're being impacted more.

Speaker:

It's a disability. It's, you know,

Speaker:

probably a bit of rejection sensitivity disorder.

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And, you know, once you are aware of it,

Speaker:

then you can behave, not behave differently.

Speaker:

What's the word? You can put strategies and tools and techniques in place

Speaker:

Hmm?

Speaker:

and ask for help and get support,

Speaker:

speak to other people, getting support networks and network with other people that

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are dealing with it.

Speaker:

When you start realising that you're not alone,

Speaker:

that's massive.

Speaker:

It really is.

Speaker:

You must have had lots of people on your podcast,

Speaker:

both ADHD spotted years and years ago and more recently.

Speaker:

How does it affect people who are just ploughing through regardless?

Speaker:

Because you must have had conversation with people who are wondering

Speaker:

why they're different. They're ploughing ahead,

Speaker:

they're not making sense of it.

Speaker:

They are really, really struggling,

Speaker:

but fighting their way through.

Speaker:

How does the...

Speaker:

diagnosis allow them to change that.

Speaker:

It's a really, really good question.

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And I've been helping someone actually the last week or so,

Speaker:

I've been reconnected with someone who I'd helped before.

Speaker:

And they said, I've hit my rock bottom.

Speaker:

I don't know what to do. I don't want to leave my house.

Speaker:

My house is upside down. I can't be bothered to tidy up the dish washing.

Speaker:

sat there for days and that's not like me.

Speaker:

I'm just so depressed and unable to function.

Speaker:

I went through with them lots of different traits that they were explaining.

Speaker:

I was just reflecting them back.

Speaker:

And I saying, you do realise that a lot of these are neurodiverse traits.

Speaker:

I can't diagnose you, but if I was going to put money on it,

Speaker:

I'd say, you're ADHD, possibly autistic as well.

Speaker:

But you need to go and speak to a doctor.

Speaker:

I don't want to be labeled. don't want to use it as an excuse.

Speaker:

All those things come up again.

Speaker:

I'm like, yeah, but if you understand who you are,

Speaker:

then you can begin to make changes in accepting who you are.

Speaker:

And one step at a time,

Speaker:

rebuild yourself, knowing,

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understanding how your brain works.

Speaker:

It's different to everyone else's.

Speaker:

if it is that.

Speaker:

I don't see it as an excuse. Am I going to use an excuse?

Speaker:

Only to myself. You know, I'm not taking the camera into my bedroom.

Speaker:

You you're not seeing that. I have four plates,

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four knives, four forks, four mugs.

Speaker:

For that reason, I have to empty my sink every three days.

Speaker:

Yeah, I'm messy. I'll own that.

Speaker:

I have to make strategies to deal with it,

Speaker:

but yeah, it's not, I don't see it as an excuse.

Speaker:

I see it as a real validation of having been amazing to make sense of life this

Speaker:

far and getting through with it.

Speaker:

Cause it has been a struggle. You know,

Speaker:

Mmm.

Speaker:

for you, it

Speaker:

has been a struggle and it's it going back to that,

Speaker:

person you've been dealing talking to when that penny drops,

Speaker:

they realise that it's okay. You know,

Speaker:

I am different. I guess there's going to be,

Speaker:

there's going to be that capacity for change,

Speaker:

but there has to be.

Speaker:

I'm presuming there is an element of self rejection,

Speaker:

shame and embarrassment around I am ADHD,

Speaker:

I am different, my brain is different.

Speaker:

Does shame crop up a lot with the people you deal with,

Speaker:

you work with?

Speaker:

I think everybody's different,

Speaker:

aren't they? But there's the saying,

Speaker:

isn't there, that if you've met one neurodiverse person,

Speaker:

you've met one diagnosed neurodiverse person,

Speaker:

that everybody is different on the spectrum.

Speaker:

But I think that it's probably quite common for us to feel guilty.

Speaker:

I've seen other people who, you know,

Speaker:

but you're just talking about mess and stuff like that.

Speaker:

I thrive in a tidy environment.

Speaker:

But I'm messy as hell. So I've got the wife who's a very tidy person.

Speaker:

She's getting the hump with me.

Speaker:

But it works because if I make a mess,

Speaker:

she tidies it. And I say to her,

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look, if I'm really getting on your nerves,

Speaker:

I've left something in a mess.

Speaker:

Just tell me, give me the focus because I can hyper focus.

Speaker:

That area there, that needs sorting out.

Speaker:

Can you do it, please? Sure. Let me get on it.

Speaker:

Can you body double with me though?

Speaker:

Cause that really helps. Like the other day,

Speaker:

I'm always spilling my drinks.

Speaker:

This is just a me thing. Have you seen the airplane film?

Speaker:

Do you remember the airplane

Speaker:

you

Speaker:

from the eighties? The drinking problem guy,

Speaker:

where he's splashing it all over himself.

Speaker:

That's me.

Speaker:

You

Speaker:

I make a mess with my drink and I spilt my drink on the,

Speaker:

on the new sofa, which wasn't,

Speaker:

you know, what are you doing? It wasn't good.

Speaker:

And it's on the floor and I'm like,

Speaker:

I'll deal with it. Just stand there with me and be with me.

Speaker:

And I dealt with it. And she maybe handed me a few cleaning products.

Speaker:

But I dealt with it and I tidied it up.

Speaker:

And it works. We're a team. She has weaknesses that,

Speaker:

So we're going to take a break.

Speaker:

and strength, we

Speaker:

have strengths and weaknesses that balance each other out.

Speaker:

One of the things I like is she does the washing the clothes and she'll

Speaker:

put all the clothes on top of my wardrobe,

Speaker:

not wardrobe sorry, cupboard to put away and she'll moan at me that

Speaker:

I haven't put them away but I'm like,

Speaker:

yeah but you've made them all nice and neat and tidy so tomorrow that's like

Speaker:

a gift for me. I don't even have to think about what I'm gonna put

Speaker:

on because it's laid there and I'm just gonna wear that and then.

Speaker:

A, saves me putting it away and B,

Speaker:

I know I look the same as yesterday,

Speaker:

but at least, you know,

Speaker:

Hmm.

Speaker:

it's clean.

Speaker:

Absolutely

Speaker:

faultless logic. I am with you 100 % there.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

But you've nailed

Speaker:

something so incredibly important there and it's that communication.

Speaker:

And you've got somebody with neurodiversity,

Speaker:

they are going to be different full stop.

Speaker:

So you have to learn to communicate.

Speaker:

You also mentioned body doubling and tell me what that is in a second.

Speaker:

But it sounds like you and your wife,

Speaker:

you talk to each other, you communicate and you say,

Speaker:

hang on, that's not working. Hang on,

Speaker:

I'm not working.

Speaker:

How important is that in a neuro-spicy,

Speaker:

neuro-typical, neuro-normal relationship?

Speaker:

Communication is key. It really is other people could look in and

Speaker:

say Cliffs lazy You can't really label people don't like labels,

Speaker:

but they're quite happy to label us lazy or this or that It's not laziness.

Speaker:

It's just the way our brain is So if I'm hyper focused on my podcast everything else

Speaker:

doesn't exist So that might mean that I've left something in a messy spot

Speaker:

But doesn't mean that I meant to or as lazy or didn't want to do it.

Speaker:

No, just, okay. This needs doing give me some focus and,

Speaker:

then coming back to the body doubling.

Speaker:

Sometimes if it's a job I don't want to do or struggle with mentally in some way,

Speaker:

just be there with me. You don't have to do it.

Speaker:

Just be there with me. That's what body doubling is just a bit of moral support.

Speaker:

Like just,

Speaker:

Hmm.

Speaker:

even if you're just sitting on the sofa next to me.

Speaker:

while I'm cleaning the thing up.

Speaker:

Give me a bit of guidance. You missed a spot.

Speaker:

There's, you know, that bit there.

Speaker:

Great, thanks. All right. Because it might not exist to me,

Speaker:

that spot. And then a few days later when it's a stain,

Speaker:

because it wasn't dealt with properly,

Speaker:

then that's going to be on me.

Speaker:

But if we do it as

Speaker:

Hmm.

Speaker:

a team, there we go. We've succeeded.

Speaker:

Yeah, I like that tremendously.

Speaker:

And hyperfocus. I used to be a very successful photographer.

Speaker:

Now I'm just a photographer in my spare time.

Speaker:

I would completely, completely that hyperfocus.

Speaker:

I would sit there and I would work.

Speaker:

I would get cold, would be snowing,

Speaker:

it be raining, it would be sunny,

Speaker:

I'd get sunburned. It didn't matter.

Speaker:

I would be so focused on that.

Speaker:

I just wouldn't notice time or anything.

Speaker:

And it was absolutely delicious.

Speaker:

really really wonderful so yeah I can that is a real strength isn't

Speaker:

it providing I guess there's someone who can help maneuver you around you're like

Speaker:

a cannon I suppose isn't it

Speaker:

Yeah, exactly. Point me where you want me to shoot.

Speaker:

You

Speaker:

And that is a problem with work as well.

Speaker:

Coming back to one of your earlier questions,

Speaker:

how it impacts you at work. If I reflect back to the time when I was

Speaker:

a team lead manager for IT for the NHS,

Speaker:

and this was something I actually had to deal with and I had a mentor help

Speaker:

me through this with some training and stuff for leadership.

Speaker:

But I was...

Speaker:

I go into this hyper focus mode.

Speaker:

So if I'm dealing with an IT issue and some one of my team comes at

Speaker:

me with another issue, I'd be like,

Speaker:

you're not now I'm working on this and totally really piss

Speaker:

off the guy or lady,

Speaker:

whoever it was that's come to me because they needed some support or whatever

Speaker:

it was they needed to talk to me about.

Speaker:

I've, it sounds rude.

Speaker:

probably I was probably sounding rude,

Speaker:

but it wasn't rudeness when you look back,

Speaker:

not intentional rudeness anyway.

Speaker:

was, this is the way my brain is and it's focused on that.

Speaker:

And if I forget that then I'm and I can't,

Speaker:

you know, I'm going to get in a right state.

Speaker:

So I had to work really hard at overcoming that limitation and the training

Speaker:

and the mentoring I had, but that really helps with,

Speaker:

with parenting as well, because now I can.

Speaker:

The same triggers are there and I'm like,

Speaker:

God, I really want to do this.

Speaker:

But if Eva comes to me and says,

Speaker:

dad, dad, look at this. I now I take a breath and then

Speaker:

I slowly turn and say, yeah, okay,

Speaker:

Eva talk to me. My brain's still stuck here,

Speaker:

but my focus is here. I sort of plow through with a bit of willpower

Speaker:

and breathing really helps. And then suddenly my focus is on.

Speaker:

Actually, Eva, you're really more important than whatever this rubbish

Speaker:

is I'm working on. yeah, please tell me I'm really fascinated to know what you're

Speaker:

going to tell me. And that really helps.

Speaker:

talk to the hand, the body's, the brain's not listening.

Speaker:

I can completely relate to that.

Speaker:

So how do you do, how do you manage to do that?

Speaker:

I mean, I know you've explained it,

Speaker:

but what's, how do you, when you have to deal with something,

Speaker:

a child situation, and you've got that attention somewhere,

Speaker:

how do you bring it back? Because I think this is a really important point for me.

Speaker:

educational for me. ~ But

Speaker:

Mmm. Mmm.

Speaker:

in general, for people who are,

Speaker:

"I've got ADHD kids or I'm ADHD,

Speaker:

I'm trying to do this, I'm trying to do that,

Speaker:

I'm juggling a million balls and something needs my attention." That's actually more

Speaker:

important than everything else.

Speaker:

Yeah, it's a great question again.

Speaker:

So have you ever heard of Eckhart Tolle?

Speaker:

Yeah, so his technique is what I use for that.

Speaker:

It's become the silent observer of your own mind.

Speaker:

Take a deep breath. And you know,

Speaker:

you've got two things coming at you and your mind telling you probably

Speaker:

the wrong thing because you your attention and your focus was on this

Speaker:

and now it needs to shift. But what in your mind is

Speaker:

really giving you the pressure points.

Speaker:

Is it you? Is it the subconscious?

Speaker:

What is the mind bully trying to take your attention off,

Speaker:

which is really more important?

Speaker:

What's more important, your daughter or this thing that you're working on.

Speaker:

So it's for the podcast or whatever business or job or work situation that

Speaker:

you was dealing with. And then

Speaker:

Coming into the present moment.

Speaker:

The present moment is the only thing that exists.

Speaker:

I like that. Really, really useful.

Speaker:

So you're taking a breath, observing yourself,

Speaker:

observing what's going on and then prioritising what needs to be done

Speaker:

in the present, in the moment.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

yeah exactly right

Speaker:

And then how quickly do you get back to the thing that you were doing?

Speaker:

Does that not really matter? Or do you off go off something else?

Speaker:

It doesn't really matter. ~ God.

Speaker:

Do you start doing the washing up rather than what you were doing beforehand?

Speaker:

Yeah, at that point you could switch to anything.

Speaker:

And that really important tax return that you was working

Speaker:

on might get forgotten now. well.

Speaker:

well. But you got a happy child.

Speaker:

We

Speaker:

got a happy child, but it will come back.

Speaker:

You'll pick things up and I set reminders as well.

Speaker:

So

Speaker:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

if there is an important

Speaker:

tax, you know, self assessment return or something that you've got to do.

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I'll set reminders and I won't just do one because the first one

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I might forget anyway. So I'll do maybe three.

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This is, you know, a month in advance,

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two weeks in advance, a week left to go.

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Oh, we better do it now.

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Yeah.

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I did that with my tax return.

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It needs to be done on January the 30th,

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October, November, January 29th.

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Shit, better get all those statements.

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Seven o'clock

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Yeah.

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in the evening, I started doing it on the 30th.

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Yep, got it all done, but yeah.

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Yeah, common with us.

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Why? Why, why, why? Why do we do that?

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Why is that such a trait?

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Good question. I don't know. But it's common.

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It's common for us. It's

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Yeah.

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probably a bit like objects in...

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What's the word? Objects in...

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Oh, I forget the word. But like an object.

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Say you're looking for your shoes and then you've put them somewhere

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and someone's moved them. You won't be able to find them now because to you,

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they should be...

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where you left them not tidied away.

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So

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there's bloody pixies

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Yeah,

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so you will be looking and your brain won't be able to figure it out

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and you'll even go to where they should be in the tidybox if you like me i'll

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go and have a look in that the ~ we've got like a a unit with the shoes

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in i'll open the lid and i'll be looking and they will not exist It's like they they

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just don't exist. They're not there.

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I can't see them I have to ask for help and can you come and help me find my shoes?

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And she will lift the thing up.

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Look, they're right there on the top.

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Why couldn't you see that? I

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I don't know.

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~ I've got no excuses

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Yeah, just the way much.

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there. I'm the only one in the house.

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So they are wherever I've left them all.

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Those pixies have hidden them.

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They are.

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yeah.

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So that time blindness thing, I mean that is a huge issue isn't it?

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~

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Timed blindness,

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Going back to that tax return.

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Do you find that a problem? Is that something that you deal with?

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Or you cope with that alright?

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Time blindness is a problem. It's always been a problem and this goes back

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to childhood as well I remember dad being not around much because he

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was shift work night shift and I could never Understand

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his shift pattern He would say Next week I'm on days or next week on

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the nights and it didn't mean anything.

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I don't understand you Look that comes back again to there is only now like

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Hmm.

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you're either here or you're not

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And to me, it just felt like you're not around because even if you're

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on a day shift, you're tired. And if you're on a night shift,

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well, you're sleeping during sleeping during the day.

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So I don't don't see you during the day.

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Yeah, it was horrible. So I think that's where that's when I first recognised that

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I didn't understand time learning time clocks.

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No, just digital clock was about the best thing I could

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get to grips with at school. can read an analog clock now,

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but I still find it, I still have to really think about it,

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do you know what mean?

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Hmm.

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It doesn't just like normal person,

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yeah, that's fine. Obviously the fiber clock,

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the easy ones, but when it's like slightly off,

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I'm like, how many minutes? just give me a digital clock.

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Yeah,

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and daughter's the same, time blindness.

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She's worse actually because even give her a digital clock and she can't figure

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it out Five minutes. I'll say she'll say how long how long till we because I'll give

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her time if you just say we're going let's say we're out and about She's having fun.

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We can't just say why we're going now.

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We're at the park No, she'll she'll have a meltdown.

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You say well, we're going to be going in about 15 minutes So start getting your mind

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ready to think about going home Then she's got time to to process it

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If I say 15 minutes, although she'll say,

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OK, great. Thanks, Dad. If I say to her,

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do you know what 15 minutes is?

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Not really.

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Hmm.

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I've explained it to her so many times.

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You know, how many seconds in a minute and all that stuff.

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Mm-hmm. Doesn't matter. Do you know,

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there's several things you've said today that have just really just dropped

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bombshells. One, about a parent not being present because they're working.

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You know, they're not there now,

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so they don't exist.

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Mm.

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Terrifying. That's just gone through my head,

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and that's changing story. I have stories to look at about that.

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But also the time thing. Yeah,

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know, 10 minutes, fine. Doesn't mean anything.

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It's, yeah, it's now or never.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that is you've rocked my world again with that.

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There's some things I need to look at there because I'm not on time.

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You know, I've got to be at the cinema by one o'clock,

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45 minutes to take a train. I'll be at the station with half

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an hour because suddenly I haven't got enough time.

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Yeah.

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I'm either late or really early.

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So like if I'm going for an interview,

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I'll be there like an hour early usually just because otherwise I'm going

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to be late.

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Hmm.

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And then you're sitting there waiting for an interview and your anxiety

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is building because you're like,

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God. And then when they say it's not starting on time either and you've

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got to wait even longer.

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By the time you get into the interview,

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you're a gibbering wreck. you're like,

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how am I going to get this job?

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I'm a lunatic.

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And that's when the brain's gone.

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Hi, my name is...

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Yeah, who am I?

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Blimey. Yeah.

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this has been a very diverse conversation.

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We've gone everywhere. Sometimes we've gone three different directions at once.

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I mean, this is just kind of delicious.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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~

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back to you and what you do. Tell me about the podcast.

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Tell us where my listeners can find you because,

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you know, there's a wisdom and an experience there that you share with people.

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And I think it's really, really important.

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So, yeah, where can

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Where can we find more about you?

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Yeah, thanks for let me share so Parenting,

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Autism and ADHD we're available on all major podcast platforms

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and We're interviewing all sorts of people actually Hamish love to have

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you on the show if you're up for it Yeah ~

Speaker:

Absolutely, yeah. Just give

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me lots of notice because I might be late.

Speaker:

Yes, set reminders. I have so many reminders going off.

Speaker:

I'm surprised my wife doesn't go mad with the amount of Alexa are telling me,

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this is coming up for your podcast.

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I had three reminders set.

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I just about made it.

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gives me time to get present in the moment.

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Brilliant. So

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Yes.

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you're on podcast, you're on social media as well.

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Yep, we are on TikTok. We're on YouTube,

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Instagram. I'll send you all the links.

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LinkedIn as well, I'm on there.

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Mm-hmm.

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Cliff, thanks. This has been a good conversation.

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As I said, you've given me a couple of really big things to think about and muse on.

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guess if you're wondering whether you are ADHD yourself,

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get it looked at. It will change your life.

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It's not a label. It doesn't have to be a label.

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And if your kids are bonkers like me and Cliff were and his daughter,

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get them looked at as well.

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~ It's not a disability, it is a different way of being.

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I think that's the message really,

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isn't it?

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Yeah, it's a good way of looking at it.

Speaker:

Brilliant. thanks, Cliff. And that was another episode of the Brave Man Project.

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And if you like what you listen to,

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please share it. Please like it.

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Please pass it on to anybody, especially if you think someone is a bit ADHD,

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not present, all sorts of things,

Speaker:

because it's a really important conversation to have.

Speaker:

Thank you ever so much.

Speaker:

Arigato, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker:

It's been an absolute pleasure joining you.

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About the Podcast

The Brave Man Project with Hamish Niven
Stories of men who have fallen and climbed higher.
This is not a podcast about fixing yourself. You are not broken machinery.

The Brave Man Project is for the man who is brilliant at his job and dead behind the eyes - the one everyone swears is fine. Raw, unedited conversations with men who wore the mask so long they forgot their own face, and men who took it off and found the world in Technicolour.

No formulas. No five-step plans. No burnout experts. Just the truth about what falling cost them, and what it actually took to build something real.

The show moves through two lenses.

The Mirror reflects the lie you've been telling yourself: "I'm alright, mate." Men who were Captain of the Universe, who loaded bricks onto their backs until the weight turned lethal - the heart attack at thirty-seven, the iron mask worn through a marriage, the three drinks needed to sleep. Then they fell. And they chose to look. Their story is your story, a few years back. And they got out.

The Window expands the view. Men who woke up and saw in colour - not because their circumstances changed, but because they did. They don't reflect your collapse. They prove you were never broken to begin with. The Mirror asks, "is this you?" The Window asks, "could this also be you?"

Your host, Hamish Niven, spent twenty-five years filming other people's lives while avoiding his own. Professional, reliable, the man who always showed up - all of it a performance. When addiction brought him down, he didn't find recovery. He found the man buried alive under his own competence. He holds the space here the way he wishes someone had held it for him: no judgement, no advice, no applause.

This is for the man tired of the noise and the bullshit. The man exhausted from carrying a mask. Whether the universe is currently kicking you into the foetal position, or you're simply sick of the black-and-white grind.

The performance is over. The real work starts now.

About your host

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Hamish Niven